Guantanamo.. Till When?!
“No exceptional circumstances whatsoever, whether a state of war or a threat or war, internal political instability or any other public emergency, may be invoked as a justification of torture.”
U.N. Convention against Torture; Article 2, Section 2
It wasn’t so long ago that the US has acknowledged acts of torture and cruelty at the Guantanomo Bay detention Facility, and various prisons in Iraq and Afghanistan (via AFP) till this very date, the US continues detaining 600 some prisoners for no crime whatsoever, without being able access to a lawyer, a court of law, or even minimum contact with their families and the outer world, breaching all known international and humanly known laws.
The pieces of the puzzle really don’t seem to come together in my head at all; the value of the prisoners detained were repeatedly questioned by US officials (1, 2, 3).
Why are they even in custody?! Given the time frame of the situation, all information they had (if any) is most probably outdated by now; what value could they have?! Why is the US spending some $32 Million to build a “200- bed prison” to hold “detainees who are unlikely to ever go through a military tribunal for lack of evidence for life time detention”? (Via ABC), remember all those in Guantanomo were not convicted by any court of law, yet the US government is accounting for lifetime incarceration already.
Torture.. Permanent Imprisonment without charges.. And another violations of all UN Laws.. How can we continue to ignore?! Why isn’t anyone speaking?! Isn’t this worse than AbuGhraib?!
It breaks my heart to read about the continuous hunger strikes (via CNN), and the relentless touching pleads of the families of those detained, the recent of which was a letter from the dying father of one of the Bahraini prisoners held captive (source).
May God continue to uphold them in their cells, for it will be a long time..
Your post doesn’t really add up in my head either, especially since about a week ago you said:
“The US is there, and it is there to stay. For the good of the entire Iraqi population, it is to stay the very same way it is currently basing right here in Bahrain, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Korea and even Japan. Doing what they do best!”
Do clarify your opinion on this whole fiasco. Are you in favour of how America’s handling this supposed war on terrorism? Because it seemed as though your tongue was stuck up way up their ass in the post I mentioned. “It’s America that did this! It’s America that did that! Furthermore, without America, I won’t even be here!” Sorry if that came out bitchy, but the post itself was just poorly argued and it reeked of ‘American pride’ that I already argued against somewhere within the 43 comments posted.
Let’s see if Aliandra graces us with her presence for this post again. She’s going to find sources that reveal the fact that the Iraqi and Afghani POWs are actually living in a fully-furnished room with a double bed, a flatscreen TV and instant cable and internet connection. They occasionally eat take-out but the troops are there to cook while making sure that the barbaric Muslims are not killing each other. I love US troops. They really know how to babysit and maintain peace.
ES:
I guess we stand on different sides on this issue, but since you insist on taking a stand on how America is handling its war against terror (even that I don’t believe in blind/full adherence to any political current and/or policy), I believe I can in some way classify myself as pro-America (well, for the major part at least).
As a principal, the strategy of “best defense is a good offense” which is (supposed to be) applied both domestically and overseas is legitimate and justifiable, but again the aftermaths of the policy is just unavoidable, even if it meant the loss of 2,000 US forces and many Iraqis and the creation of a swamp that served as both the motivator and the training grounds for the increasing number of jihadist world wide, it just had to be carried out for the good of all, you see.. such consequences along with Guantanamo, AbuGhraib, the bombing of that Wedding Party that for some reason is still stuck to my memory, and the on going saga of deaths and destructions around the country is the price of that everybody had to pay. It is only humane to condemn, criticize and send the message as it is really the least we could do.
Back to the issue of the withdrawal of Iraq (now…today…this very minute) I seriously see it as just childish and indefensible, the country just went through a chain of suicide bombings taking the life of more than 150 civilians (that’s 3 times the deaths in London Bombings) in one day, let alone the calls for the slaughter of all Shia, and the constitution that keeps getting delayed over and over, I don’t even want to imagine how Iraq would be like today without the US.
Now, about my “poorly argued” article; one of the reasons that I started this blog in the first place is to exchange my points of view and share my thinking with other readers, I do take it that you will enlighten me through “proper arguments” as to how you see it?
I wonder why the US Government has made no attempt to censor the feel-good images. I’m sure I saw that image of the kid hitting Saddam’s statue with his shoes about a billion times on the News when they first invaded and for the next 6 months.
Until they are willing to show children injured from collateral damage, they have no business showing the soldiers handing out footballs to children (guess which one I’ve actually seen on CNN and win a cookie!)
“Back to the issue of the withdrawal of Iraq (now…today…this very minute) I seriously see it as just childish and indefensible”
That’s because you don’t bomb a country of 30 million, leave it in shambles, and expect to get away with it. If you think America’s doing Iraq a “favour” by talking about reconstruction, think again. It’s their fucking job.
“I don’t even want to imagine how Iraq would be like today without the US.”
Let’s just say that more people would most likely be alive. America could do a better job in their handling. Sending 10,000 armed kids a year even after the destruction of their corrupt government is not part of the reconstructing process.
The United States of America broke all UN let me correct you articles not laws and the Third Geneva Convention articles related to the treatment of prisoners of war (POW). The US is a contracting party to both needless to say, but the UN charter and the Geneva Convention don’t necessarily bind parties, they can do whatever they damn please. That just pisses me off!
Not a single person can do anything about this. The Guantanamo Bay detainees are under the mercy of the United States of dear old America!
“..How can we continue to ignore?! Why isn’t anyone speaking?! Isn’t this worse than AbuGhraib?!”
The Bahrain Center for Human Rights held a meeting which I personally attended and relatives from all over the Arab Nation turned up. It really broke our hearts. Relatives are trying, lawyers are filing law suits and volunteers are helping out, but for some reason it isn’t working! Are we not trying hard enough or is there a large wall that we just can’t climb, blocking every attempt? I don’t personally know.
Recent attempts:
1.http://www.arabnews.com/?page=4§ion=0&article=49272&d=2&m=8&y=2004
2.http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=119714&Sn=BNEW&IssueID=28151
ExCluSivE
Lets not talk about the US media here; the way the war machine controls its people through those little screens is just beyond belief, I don’t know if you heard about the recent ruling on CNN’s behalf to allow reports to cover the “dead zone” of Katrina (via CNN) after the banning, I also came across another report earlier this morning that claimed another bar has been executed outlawing all reporters from covering the recent clashes in Tel Afar; you can just imagine what poison FOX is broadcasting to its viewers as we speak.
On another issue, a satanic thought has been haunting me the past couple of days that I wanted to write a new post about but since were on the issue here, might as well spell it out.
Would you agree “historically speaking”, when a major military power (or a group, as we have in this case) occupies a country for a significant period –say a generation or more- the results could be impressive; having Germany, Japan or even Bahrain as an example? Would iraq be significantly different?
Looking forward for any response,
The reason these guys are being held is that many of them have been recaptured (or killed) after being released. They went right back to Iraq/Afghanistan and fought the US forces again. Some of them have skills (like bombmaking) that they can teach to other recruits. The US has an interest in making sure they don’t.
The reason they can be held without trial is that they have no standing under Geneva Conventions. The Conventions do not cover terrorists. Anyone who is not clearly identifiable when fighting (i.e. uniform, rank insignia) is either a terrorist or a spy. Both are subject to summary execution under Geneva Conventions.
Every detainee has been before a military tribunal who provides them with an advocate. All that are remanded have lost their appeal to the tribunal and those that are released, have won.
So, Dubh, are you saying that the detainees being held there are being held for obvious reasons (being engaged in terrorism somehow?)
There have been evidence (okay, journalist witnesses and photographs are hardly evidence, but it’s something) that prove otherwise. Remember the 6 Bahraini detainees? Most of them were just innocent students going about their business. Not all, in fact, most of the people there are there for no reason other than ‘looking suspicious.’ It’s a joke that will unfortunately go on for as long as we keep overlooking the fact that this procedure is inhumane.
“Would you agree “historically speaking”, when a major military power (or a group, as we have in this case) occupies a country for a significant period –say a generation or more- the results could be impressive; having Germany, Japan or even Bahrain as an example? Would iraq be significantly different?”
I think it would be different, culturally speaking. I think it’s sad that we would have no more roots to the old Iraq or the ‘traditional’ Iraq by the time America’s done fiddling around with it. I wish they would shit on everything but the cultural sites, but that’s not happening (and that didn’t happen during Saddam’s rule either, his palaces was built on land that could have been used for archaelogical purposes that would have benifited the richness of Iraq’s culture.) If you take a look at history and Iraq’s role as the highlight of the Eastern hemisphere and the ‘educational centre’ of this region (actually it was thought to be the place for education by many Greek and Spanish philosophers too), you kind of want to learn about it, if only for research purposes. That’s what’s so great about places like Greece and (to some extent) Indonesia.
If you think this is irrelvent to the question, it’s not, because what I’m trying to say is that if a country’s taken over, the traditions and certain beliefs will change unless people are very much attached. If reconstruction was to be done, of course they’re not going to pay attention to Islamic architecture and those little things that really matter (the things that distinguishes a unique country from another.)
I don’t blame the downfall on Iraq on America, it would be rediculous to assume that. I know that the citizens of the country in question also play a part in that (the Muslim mujahideen in places like Afghanistan too, when they started burning historical and significant Buddhist temples during the last year of the Taliban rule.) I think the problem with us (you have to admit, even in Bahrain) is that we don’t aggressively preserve things that really need attention (forts, really old houses, villages and mosques.) A country is nothing without its ties to true culture and history. It doesn’t matter how developed it is in terms of economy and the political system, when the country burns the bridge between “now” and “then,” it automatically becomes less interesting and less rich in terms of culture.
Could the situation improve? Yes, but it will be unbelievably Westernised, in my opinion. To many people that may not always be a bad thing, but by that time, the new generation of Iraq would have lost their connection with history. That’s a huge deal. You can say it doesn’t matter as long as they’re safe and are living happily ever after in a place that is nowhere near being corrupt, but like I said, culture plays a major role. It will be like the new Iraqi generation would be a lost tribe that aren’t connected with their past, which was incredibly impressive.
Good day Anon;
Since you demanded the grace of my presence, here it is!
You said “Let’s see if Aliandra graces us with her presence for this post again She’s going to find sources that reveal the fact that the Iraqi and Afghani POWs are actually living in a fully-furnished room”
There are no Iraqi POWS at Gitmo. As for the Afghan POWs, they are living on a nice tropical island, with three full square meals a day, comfortable beds, and access to free First World medical care. That’s quite an improvement over sleeping in caves in sub-zero temperatures on dirt floors cuddled up to their AK-47s and Kalishnikovs. :^
“Let’s just say that more people would most likely be alive”
Iraqi researchers, after going through many of the Baathist documents, determined that were it not for the Iraq war, Saddam would have gone on to kill another 70,000 people. That’s a big difference from the total number of people killed since the war started, which as of July 2005, was determined to be about 25,000.
So if we do the math, the Iraq war prevented another 45,000 deaths.
Cheers;
Aliandra
Emoodz;
“Lets not talk about the US media here; the way the war machine controls its people through those little screens is just beyond belief, you can just imagine what poison FOX is broadcasting to its viewers as we speak.”
Put your tin foil hat on, Emoodz!
Because Americans may not think the way you do, does not mean they are all drinking CNN’s or FOX’s Kool-Aid. There are hundreds of news channels in the US, plus thousands of websites, newspapers, radio stations, magazines, or what have you. Americans get their information from a variety of different sources – they aren’t basing their opinions only on what CNN and FOX say.
“Would you agree “historically speaking”, when a major military power (or a group, as we have in this case) occupies a country for a significant period –say a generation or more- the results could be impressive; having Germany, Japan or even Bahrain as an example? Would iraq be significantly different?”
It depends the type of culture you have to start with.
Americans didn’t rule Japan for a generation – it was only seven years. Japan is a collectivist culture and they had a very strong work ethic to begin with. That’s mostly explains their meteoric rise to first world status. The Germans too have the same cultural ethic. After WW1, they got back up on their feet and became a great power again. After WW2, same thing.
Iraq does not look so promising. Unlike the other two countries, Iraq is not a homogenous society. There are ethnic, tribal, and religious conflicts, that are definitely going to impede progress.
Cheers
Aliandra
“Since you demanded the grace of my presence, here it is!”
Oh no. Now we have the misfortune of sitting through your senseless drivel.
“There are no Iraqi POWS at Gitmo. As for the Afghan POWs, they are living on a nice tropical island, with three full square meals a day, comfortable beds, and access to free First World medical care. That’s quite an improvement over sleeping in caves in sub-zero temperatures on dirt floors cuddled up to their AK-47s and Kalishnikovs.”
Who fed you this useless information?
Throw it up. Suggest this idea to anyone whose families had to deal with their kids being sent off to these prisons and you will be rediculed to tears.
“Iraqi researchers, after going through many of the Baathist documents, determined that were it not for the Iraq war, Saddam would have gone on to kill another 70,000 people. That’s a big difference from the total number of people killed since the war started, which as of July 2005, was determined to be about 25,000.
So if we do the math, the Iraq war prevented another 45,000 deaths.”
Provide sources, and it better not be covered by American journalists.
Researchers also proved the fact that women are no better off now than they were during Saddam’s ruling. If anything, they’re much worse now since they’re being detained, again, for no apparent reason.
This story appeared twice on Reuters.
You are a little TOO mislead, it’s pitiful.
Hello Anon;
You said, “Who fed you this useless information?”
You never heard of the Tora Bora cave complex? Did you really think Taliban fighters was living in a luxury condo with a clubhouse and swimming pool?
“and you will be rediculed to tears”
I am laughing to tears that anyone thinks living in a guano infested cave beats living on a tropical island with free meals, free health care, and unlimited access to Harry Potter movies.
“Provide sources, and it better not be covered by American journalists.”
So anything an American journalist says is immediately suspect, huh? Apparently, the whole Katrina disaster was just a fiction. Thank goodness – I thought it was real.
Sorry, I only speak two languages and neither of them are Arabic or Farsi, so I can’t point to any sources you’ll find acceptable.
“Researchers also proved the fact that women are no better off now than they were during Saddam’s ruling. If anything, they’re much worse now since they’re being detained, again, for no apparent reason.”
Detained by who? I’d say its a definite improvement not having to worry about being carried off by Uday and Qusay for a night of passion. So is not having to visit Saddam’s rape rooms.
The US didn’t go to Iraq to free the women. Unfortunately, lots of women in Iraq, especially in the conservative south, want Sharia law too. There are plenty of Iraqi women who really think they are worth half a man because some medieval religious injunction told them so. Iraqis are in charge of their own government now. Americans can’t force them to write their constitution along the lines of Jefferson and Washington.
“I am laughing to tears that anyone thinks living in a guano infested cave beats living on a tropical island with free meals, free health care, and unlimited access to Harry Potter movies.”
You can laugh until you’d have to get treated for hernia my dear. You have a reason to. Your opinions are a work of comedic genius.
If you weren’t so clueless, you would realize that I was asking for evidence on your little fantasy. Guantanamo prisoners undergo severe torture. Anyone above the age of 5 has caught on to this, nothing, and I do mean nothing, has proved otherwise other than your isolated brain that seems to me convinced that Americans in general are unable to treat others as if they were animals.
“The US didn’t go to Iraq to free the women. ”
No, they went to Iraq to rape the women, right?
” Unfortunately, lots of women in Iraq, especially in the conservative south, want Sharia law too. ”
No. According to your soliders, they want sex, so that’s what they’ll get.
“There are plenty of Iraqi women who really think they are worth half a man because some medieval religious injunction told them so.”
Oh yeah? Name them.
“Iraqis are in charge of their own government now. ”
If you honestly believe that, then you must be in the process of having crippling mental issues. America is in charge of Iraq. The current government is a puppet. For as long as America’s officially involved, they can do nothing without America’s full approval.
“Americans can’t force them to write their constitution along the lines of Jefferson and Washington.”
Yawn. So you’re either stating the obvious, or you’re stating something incredibly skewed that no one in their right mind, not even the barbaric sheep herders, could ever think of.
Your mentality is way worse than any conspiracy theory ANY Arab has EVER thought of. “Guantanemo prisoners are having a blast, no one’s being tortured! They’d rather be here rather than be roaming around freely around their herpes-infested caves!” Haha, joke of the fucking ever.
Evidence of torture, let’s see how Aliandra tries to disprove any of the above (in other words, let the hilarity commence!)
1) US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan – UN
“GENEVA (AFX) – Washington has, for the first time, acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.”
http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html
2) (CBS) The story that Sgt. Erik Saar, a soldier who spent three months in the interrogation rooms at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, tells Correspondent Scott Pelley paints a picture of bizarre, even sadistic, treatment of detainees in the American prison camp. 60 Minutes also reveals previously secret emails from FBI agents at Guantanamo that warn FBI headquarters that prisoners are being tortured.
Picture of American soldiers escorting detainees -
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2005/05/01/image692275x.jpg
3) Further Detainee Abuse Alleged – At least 10 current and former detainees at the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have lodged allegations of abuse similar to the incidents described by FBI agents in newly released documents, claims that were denied by the government but gained credibility with the reports from the agents, their attorneys say.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25962-2004Dec25.html
4) Guantanamo Briton ‘in handcuff torture’ – A British detainee at Guantanamo Bay has told his lawyer he was tortured using the ‘strappado’, a technique common in Latin American dictatorships in which a prisoner is left suspended from a bar with handcuffs until they cut deeply into his wrists.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1382033,00.html
5) As evidence of torture and widespread cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment mounts, it is more urgent than ever that the US Government bring the Guantánamo Bay detention camp and any other facilities it is operating outside the USA into full compliance with international law and standards. The only alternative is to close them down.
6) Torture at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba – “Made in USA”
Havana, Jan 20 (Prensa Latina) – Persistent criticism of documented abuses and atrocities against prisoners at the US naval base in Guantamano, Cuba, in the name of the global war on terrorism, have turned human rights into a dead letter.
7) U.S. Doctors Linked to POW ‘Torture’
Medical records compiled by doctors caring for prisoners at the U.S. detention camp at Guantanamo Bay are being tapped to design more effective interrogation techniques, says an explosive new report.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/0623-06.htm
Inquiry Finds Abuses at Guantánamo Bay
Washington – A high-level military investigation into accusations of detainee abuse at Guantánamo Bay, Cuba, has concluded that several prisoners were mistreated or humiliated, perhaps illegally, as a result of efforts to devise innovative methods to gain information, senior military and Pentagon officials say.
http://www.truthout.org/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/37/10768
9) Abu Ghraib Tactics Were First Used at Guantanamo
Interrogators at the U.S. detention facility at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, forced a stubborn detainee to wear women’s underwear on his head, confronted him with snarling military working dogs and attached a leash to his chains, according to a newly released military investigation that shows the tactics were employed there months before military police used them on detainees at the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
10) U.N. Uncovers Torture at Guantanamo Bay
GENEVA — U.N. human rights experts said Thursday they have reliable accounts of detainees being tortured at the U.S. base in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
This should be enough to juggle with your brainwashed mind. I beg you to prove any of the above articles wrong.
Evidence of torture, let’s see how Aliandra tries to disprove any of the above (in other words, let the hilarity commence!)
1) US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan – UN
“GENEVA (AFX) – Washington has, for the first time, acknowledged to the United Nations that prisoners have been tortured at US detention centres in Guantanamo Bay, as well as Afghanistan and Iraq, a UN source said.”
http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html
2) (CBS) The story that Sgt. Erik Saar, a soldier who spent three months in the interrogation rooms at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, tells Correspondent Scott Pelley paints a picture of bizarre, even sadistic, treatment of detainees in the American prison camp. 60 Minutes also reveals previously secret emails from FBI agents at Guantanamo that warn FBI headquarters that prisoners are being tortured.
Picture of American soldiers escorting detainees -
http://wwwimage.cbsnews.com/images/2005/05/01/image692275x.jpg
3) Further Detainee Abuse Alleged – At least 10 current and former detainees at the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have lodged allegations of abuse similar to the incidents described by FBI agents in newly released documents, claims that were denied by the government but gained credibility with the reports from the agents, their attorneys say.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25962-2004Dec25.html
4) Guantanamo Briton ‘in handcuff torture’ – A British detainee at Guantanamo Bay has told his lawyer he was tortured using the ‘strappado’, a technique common in Latin American dictatorships in which a prisoner is left suspended from a bar with handcuffs until they cut deeply into his wrists.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1382033,00.html
5) As evidence of torture and widespread cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment mounts, it is more urgent than ever that the US Government bring the Guantánamo Bay detention camp and any other facilities it is operating outside the USA into full compliance with international law and standards. The only alternative is to close them down.
6) Torture at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba – “Made in USA”
Havana, Jan 20 (Prensa Latina) – Persistent criticism of documented abuses and atrocities against prisoners at the US naval base in Guantamano, Cuba, in the name of the global war on terrorism, have turned human rights into a dead letter.
I assume the pasted selection were too long to post here, so I’m just going to give you the links and hopefully you’ll wise up and click on them.
1) US acknowledges torture at Guantanamo; in Iraq, Afghanistan – UN
http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/06/24/afx2110388.html
2) (CBS) The story that Sgt. Erik Saar, a soldier who spent three months in the interrogation rooms at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, tells Correspondent Scott Pelley paints a picture of bizarre, even sadistic, treatment of detainees in the American prison camp. 60 Minutes also reveals previously secret emails from FBI agents at Guantanamo that warn FBI headquarters that prisoners are being tortured.
3) At least 10 current and former detainees at the U.S. military prison in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, have lodged allegations of abuse similar to the incidents described by FBI agents in newly released documents, claims that were denied by the government but gained credibility with the reports from the agents, their attorneys say.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A25962-2004Dec25.html
4) Amnesty International report against severe and inhumane tortue in GB:
5) Torture at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba – “Made in USA”
“Sorry, I only speak two languages and neither of them are Arabic or Farsi, so I can’t point to any sources you’ll find acceptable.”
Find me something in English, then. I can’t wait forever. I have a huge list of sources to shove in your face and I want to wait for your pathetic claims to shine in first.
Dubh:
Thank you for the clarification on the Geneva Conventions standing on the detainees, But is it really worth years of delay and litigation in order to bring defendants to trial under conditions whose fairness many people will doubt?! Beside, in this very case, the US government is being the judge and the jury, which violates all known human laws, whether or not they are a threat to the society should be decided by a court of law. Caging humans without proper accusations away from all laws and regulations is inexcusable; it is nothing but a disgrace to a country like the US claiming democracy and respect of human rights.
Anon:
Personally speaking, I have my doubts as to the innocence of the detainees, we all saw how the families of the London bombers referred to them as “innocent brainwashed kids” and their activity in community service, great around kids, and how “utterly shocked” they were by their ruinous actions.. yada yada yada.. point being, we don’t know what was in their minds, I seriously doubt that a foreigner who happened to be in Afghanistan at that time had any good underlying feelings towards the US, lets not assume their absolute innocence.
Your thoughts on the effect a cultural difference are very interesting, but I don’t’ believe that such differences will be significant, lets not eliminate the strong ties Islam has with culture/tradition in the area (unless you mean just the actual buildings of course) I believe that those are untouchable, we all know how devoted the Iraqis are when it comes to their shrines, holy mosques and religious scriptures (I was watching a documentary the other day that showed hundreds of thousands of books/treasure boxes and many other valuables inside the shrines).. besides, completely erasing a country’s culture would take a lot more than military invasion.. Don’t you think?
Aliandra:
and realizing that alternative media is available now. Not sure how much longer the MSM is going to be able to hold on, but everything is down, record sales, movie ticket sales, TV viewing, while Internet users and book readers are on the rise.
Luckily a lot of the American people are in fact putting their tin foil hats on
I’ll leave the rest for Anonymous..
Anon;
You said “Guantanamo prisoners undergo severe torture”
You mean like sleep deprivation, having to listen to heavy rock music, being smeared with fake menstrual blood and being put in cold rooms? I wouldn’t call that severe, not compared to what prisoners have to put up with in the middle-east or some places in Asia. No one in Gitmo has died from “torture”. The same can’t be said for middle-eastern or Chinese prisons.
————————————–
Your first statement: “The current government is a puppet. For as long as America’s officially involved, they can do nothing without America’s full approval.”
Your second statement “ Yawn. So you’re either stating the obvious … ” in response to me saying America couldn’t force Iraqis to write their constitution along the lines of Jefferson.
So which is it? Is Iraq a puppet of the US or not? Or are you going to keep making stuff up until you land on something consistent?
—————————————————–
“that Americans in general are unable to treat others as if they were animals”
Well, we finally have something we agree on! Americans in general are indeed unable to treat people like animals. That’s why millions of immigrants go to the US every year, instead of places like North Korea or Sudan.
——————————————————
“their herpes-infested caves”
Caves can get herpes?? There must be some pretty promiscuous caves over there in Afghanistan
Always a pleasure, Anon;
-Aliandra
Emmoodz;
Alternative media is great. Regular media is too sensationalistic and relies on entertainment value to get an audience. I’ve given up on it a long time ago. I much prefer the Internet and newsmagazines, where I can really get the full context of a story.
I have no sympathy for movies losing audiences. Most Hollywood productions are pure garbage anyway.
Aliandra
“point being, we don’t know what was in their minds, I seriously doubt that a foreigner who happened to be in Afghanistan at that time had any good underlying feelings towards the US, lets not assume their absolute innocence.”
I’m not saying that all of them are absolutely innocent, though. You can already tell by the looks of some of them that they’re not. But there has been many people (by many, I mean about 80)
Aliandra:
“You said “Guantanamo prisoners undergo severe torture””
No. AP and Reuters, who filmed the ‘severe’ torture, said that. And rightly so. Severe torture is precisely what the prisoners of GB have to undergo. And unless you prove me wrong with a link other than a list of things you probably do at your leisure time (trying to convince others that America’s concentration camps are really about the milk and honey.)
“So which is it? Is Iraq a puppet of the US or not? Or are you going to keep making stuff up until you land on something consistent?”
I’m sorry for causing such brutish misunderstanding (you seem to be suffering from that painful disease, it seems.) What I implied is that of course America’s not going to apply its same rules for a nation who have disputes amongst each other. What makes you think that everyone is going to approve of absolute democracy? It is chaotic. Don’t you see the number of petitions and rebellions in the US? Not all Americans are happy with democracy, and not all Iraqis will be happy with democracy. It sounds great in theory, but it can be rather bloody in practice.
“Well, we finally have something we agree on! Americans in general are indeed unable to treat people like animals. That’s why millions of immigrants go to the US every year, instead of places like North Korea or Sudan.”
Thanks for this moronic generalization. The world’s most brutal and insenstitive criminals (that we know of) all happen to be Americans, and the victorious American army’s known for their mistreatment of citizens of the defeated nation. Americans can be just as much as animals as anybody else can. There is no such thing as an ‘American’ trait or a ‘barbaric’ trait. It’s part of personal experiences and the human nature. You aren’t born with a gold medal. Get over yourself.
Unless you open your blind eyes to the country you unfortunately live in, you’ll keep drowning in your sweeping generalizations, which gives people a solid reason to laugh at your idiocy. Other nations are considered uncivil and barbaric for obvious reasons (corrupt leadership and extreme poverty.) Your people are no better than the nations who have to deal with illegetimate rulings and civil wars. You personally didn’t achieve anything. It is by mere luck that you were born in a stable country that you were tricked into believing that it’s the greatest country in the world, which, in fact, it is not.
“I much prefer the Internet and newsmagazines, where I can really get the full context of a story.”
Have you ever heard of something called books? Encyclopedias? Perhaps even a dictionary? You’re in dire need of info.
I didn’t finish this part:
I’m not saying that all of them are absolutely innocent, though. You can already tell by the looks of some of them that they’re not. But there has been many people (by many, I mean about 80) who complained about being detained just for the fact that they were ‘suspicious,’ and they had to undergo the same amount of torture that the ones who were rightly accused did. So much for human rights and decency.
“No one in Gitmo has died from “torture”. The same can’t be said for middle-eastern or Chinese prisons.”
Many people from Abu Ghraib died of US torture. And just because the deaths of Gitmo haven’t been reported, doesn’t mean that no deaths had taken place. Remember, America’s trying to clean up its mess. It doesn’t like leaving traces here and there, so that people like you won’t turn the other cheek and think, “maybe, just maybe, some of us are guilty of being as inhumane as those fucked up Muslims.”
Mornin’ Anon;
You said “Your people are no better than the nations who have to deal with illegetimate rulings and civil wars. Americans can be just as much as animals as anybody else can. ”
I guess all those millions of immigrants that keep coming to the US didn’t get the word about Americans being uncivilized.
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“What I implied is that of course America’s not going to apply its same rules for a nation who have disputes amongst each other”
Well, for all the noise you made, you acknowledge that Iraq is not under US puppet control.
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“It is chaotic. Don’t you see the number of petitions and rebellions in the US?”
The last rebellion ended in 1865. Not sure if petitions existed in those days. I wasn’t alive back then, so no, I didn’t see them.
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“You personally didn’t achieve anything.”
Me, personally? I’ve achieved everything in my life I’ve wanted to achieve so far. How about you?
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“The world’s most brutal and insenstitive criminals (that we know of) all happen to be Americans”
Saddam Hussain, Adolph Hitler, Joseph Stalin, Francisco Franco, Idi Amin, Kim Jong Il, Benito Mussolini, and Mao Tse Tung were not American, kid. America never had any guys like these nor any of the wonderful political ideologies they invented.
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“Unless you open your blind eyes to the country you unfortunately live in,”
I consider myself to be most fortunate to be living in the country I do. People risk their lives to come to the US. We find bodies washed up along our shores and corpses along our southern deserts all the time. The fact that so many people go through so much to come here, doesn’t give your argument much credence.
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Your first statement: “No. AP and Reuters, who filmed the ’severe’ torture,”
Your second statement: “And just because the deaths of Gitmo haven’t been reported, doesn’t mean that no deaths had taken place. America’s trying to clean up its mess. It doesn’t like leaving traces here and there”
So which is it? Did the Americans, who don’t like to leave traces of their misbehavior, let Reuters film the ‘severe’ torture or not?
And how many people died at Gitmo? Reuters must know that too, right?
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“Not all Americans are happy with democracy,”
ALL Americans are happy with democracy. Not a single one wants to live under a dictatorship or theocratic oligarchy.
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“it’s the greatest country in the world, which, in fact, it is not.”
That’s a matter of personal opinion. Almost everyone thinks their own country is the greatest in the world.
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“You’re in dire need of info.”
Anyone who thinks caves can get a herpes infection is in dire need of info, if not a head doc.
(Toilet seats can’t get infected either)
Sincerely entertained,
Aliandra
(This silly thread has gone on long enough. I’m quittin’ it)
Anonymous:
“So, Dubh, are you saying that the detainees being held there are being held for obvious reasons (being engaged in terrorism somehow?)
There have been evidence (okay, journalist witnesses and photographs are hardly evidence, but it’s something) that prove otherwise. Remember the 6 Bahraini detainees? Most of them were just innocent students going about their business. Not all, in fact, most of the people there are there for no reason other than ‘looking suspicious.’ It’s a joke that will unfortunately go on for as long as we keep overlooking the fact that this procedure is inhumane.”
If they were just “going about their business” they were very foolish to do so where they were. The detainees at Gitmo are not simply swept off the streets of Iraq. They are captured after battles in places like Tora Bora where John Walker Lindt (“the American Taliban”) was caught. Certainly some are not guilty. That happens in every system in the world. It’s not perfect but it’s better than many.
Moodz:
“Dubh:
Thank you for the clarification on the Geneva Conventions standing on the detainees, But is it really worth years of delay and litigation in order to bring defendants to trial under conditions whose fairness many people will doubt?! Beside, in this very case, the US government is being the judge and the jury, which violates all known human laws, whether or not they are a threat to the society should be decided by a court of law. Caging humans without proper accusations away from all laws and regulations is inexcusable; it is nothing but a disgrace to a country like the US claiming democracy and respect of human rights.”
Odd, the US has trial by jury of one’s peers. That is the exception rather than the rule even in democratic nations. France has no jury trials, nor England. How about Saudi Arabia, Iran, Jordan? Like it or not, a military tribunal *is* a “court of law”. The law, in this case, is military so the rules are different. Again, once these guys decided to violate all laws of war, they are no longer allowed those protections. You cannot operate outside of law and refuse to recognize it’s authority and then hide behind that same law when you are captured.
“I guess all those millions of immigrants that keep coming to the US didn’t get the word about Americans being uncivilized.”
Immigrants roam around everywhere, not just America. Europe gets a huge amount of Algerians, Morrocans, and Turks. The Gulf gets a huge amount of Indians, etc. You’re not the holy land of Immigrants, you know (you probably don’t, your insipid whining stops you for actually learning anything of value.)
“Me, personally? I’ve achieved everything in my life I’ve wanted to achieve so far. How about you?”
Since when did leading a witless existence become an achievement, dear?
“That’s a matter of personal opinion. Almost everyone thinks their own country is the greatest in the world.”
No. People have the brain cells required to learn how to critisize. You don’t. Many Americans don’t think their country’s the greatest in the world. So stop the generalizing statements, they honestly don’t score you any points.
“It’s not perfect but it’s better than many.”
Highly doubtful. Why are you holding reporters from Al Jazeera, Reuters, and Al Arabiya hostage again? I thought you guys cheered for “freedom of expression”? Why can’t CNN and USA Today learn how to compete with the truth?
“ALL Americans are happy with democracy. Not a single one wants to live under a dictatorship or theocratic oligarchy.”
That’s impossible. I’ve met at least two Americans who would rather live under a different government, and ones that aren’t as extreme as the two examples you saw before. (For your simple mind, it’s always “either/or,” maybe once you study the breaking-down of a real political system, you’ll start learning the basics about when the government needs the nation’s support and when it doesn’t.)
“I consider myself to be most fortunate to be living in the country I do. People risk their lives to come to the US.”
People risk their lives to go to any other country. Kurds risk their lives to travel the borders of Iran and Iraq. Algerians risked their lives to travel to more stable countries during their brual civil war. Afghanis risked their lives to go to Iran and Pakistan. And, let’s face it, it’s not like the immigrants in America don’t have to deal with any discrimination. That means you’re not perfect (aww, did I hurt your feelings for revealing what’s painfully obvious?)
“(This silly thread has gone on long enough. I’m quittin’ it)”
Good, your utter ignorance was starting to get on my very last nerve. Next time you argue, try not to back it up with useless information that you can’t find ANY proof of, not even from skewed material online. Sad. Maybe one day, some pitiful soul may nod along to what you have to say. Like a vegetable in an American mental ward or something, because no one with a brain can ever agree with your disgustingly low theories.
You’re a blind nationalist. Yes, you’re one of those people who compete for something that isn’t even there just for the sake of feeling as if they have something to justify their pathetic existence with. “I’m American, isn’t that a good enough reason to use up the world’s vital oxygen supplies?” Guess what? It’s not. Do something with your life that doesn’t involve belittling other countries, religions, and cultures, and doesn’t involve slaughtering them either. Go ahead… or do you enjoy the hegemony?
What makes an American different from an Afghani? Nothing, except you’re fortunate enough to live in comfort. That’s not an achievement, like I said, it’s mere luck. Had you been born in a different country, your views about America would be totally different. Why? Because you like to act like a proud nationalist instead of yet another human being (which is precisely what you are: nothing but another human being. More materials, different clothing and lifestyle, but same ol’ wacko underneath)
You don’t contribute much, either to political debates or the world, so just accept the fact that you’re not any different or better from the rest of us and shut the hell up. I wonder whether or not you go anywhere without your flag, or would you feel naked and insecure? You shouldn’t. The opinions you hold already do that for you.
Dubh,
That’s true about the geneva Conventions. But I think that something should be done to get them out of that legal limbo.
Anon;
You sound like a jihadist with all your screaming and ranting. Young, shit for brains, just like all the other shaheed wannabes. No clue about history or anything else for that matter. Caves infested with herpes?? ROTFLAMO!!
Moodz;
Very interesting site.
“You sound like a jihadist with all your screaming and ranting. Young, shit for brains, just like all the other shaheed wannabes. No clue about history or anything else for that matter. Caves infested with herpes?? ROTFLAMO!!”
Brian D, if you agree with Aliandra, then your opinions are only good enough to wipe my ass with.
Thanks for your silly contribution. I shall mail you a brochure about how to dismantle the world, one idiot nation at a time.
“Brian D, if you agree with Aliandra, then your opinions are only good enough to wipe my ass with. ”
Looks like your ass is the one doing the talking.
“Looks like your ass is the one doing the talking.”
Give me a break.
It’s not that big.
I think.